Episode #48 – The Performance Marketing Spotlight with Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson

Marshall Nyman [00:00:02]:
Hello and welcome to the Performance Marketing Spotlight. I’m your host, Marshall Nyman, founder and CEO of Naimon Co. Each episode I will be bringing you someone with deep experience in the performance marketing space where they highlight their experiences within the industry. Today I have Siege, who is the CMO at intently. Welcome to the podcast Siege.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:00:22]:
Hey Marshall, how you doing?

Marshall Nyman [00:00:24]:
Doing well. Excited to have you on. Let’s jump right into it.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:00:28]:
Let’s do it.

Marshall Nyman [00:00:29]:
Can you briefly introduce yourself to the audience?

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:00:32]:
Yeah, sure, absolutely. So, yeah, I’m known as Siege. The name’s actually Chris Johnson and it’s kind of been a while from anyone really called me Chris Johnson on a daily basis. So it’s a nickname that came through C.J. through to Siege. And I think when there was about, I don’t know, 100 million other Chris Johnson’s in the world, it kind of stuck a Siege in the. It’s actually carried through into my working life as well. So here I’m known as Siege.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:01:00]:
I mean, yeah, I’ve been in affiliate marketing for about 20, 21 years. But looking at your additional people that have been on the podcast as well, I see I’m in good company on that front.

Marshall Nyman [00:01:09]:
Absolutely. And how did you get your start in affiliate marketing?

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:01:13]:
There’s an interesting question. It was probably around 2005. I was actually looking at. I’m a weird one in that I didn’t actually go to university, so I finished our A levels over here and I did a bit of a mixed bash really, of A level. So I did physics, computing, music, technology and design technology. And I guess I knew it was going to be technology in some realm, shape or form, but I wasn’t quite smart enough for the physics world. But I was looking at apprenticeships at Airbus actually, because they build the plane wings where I’m from in Bristol, home of Banksy as well. And I actually had two kind of, I guess not job offers, but there was two in the mix.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:01:52]:
One of them was a Internet marketing analyst for a guy called Matt woods, who I’m sure many people will know. And there was, I think three of us when I joined that company in the end because I think I went to the kind of the Airbus apprenticeship side of things. I just thought, you know what, I think I’m more of a marketing kind of person. I think I’m a bit more personable, sociable and the like. So obviously having an interview and a meeting with Matt was kind of made a decision for me and I joined him as Internet marketing analyst, I think. So it Was and this is interesting and I don’t know how far back your. Your tenure goes, Mar. I was actually my first job was managing the AFU Forum which was basically the UK and European equivalent of the best web, which was where everyone went and discussed affiliate marketing for you know, rather than podcasts weren’t really a thing at that time and so on.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:02:41]:
But it was the place where everybody went to talk about how affiliate marketing, their sort of tips, strategies, techniques. So I was in charge of moderating it essentially which is always good fun because I learned a lot clearly during that time. A lot of the good and the risque as well during that time. And alongside that we also had a cashback website rebate site which was called Free Fivers. So we gave a free five pound reward to anybody that signed up when they earned their first payment, which was actually really good. You’re talking obviously 20 years ago. So it was only when the likes of the 100% cashback sites came out that we kind of moved on to what was the event. So the.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:03:19]:
A few expos were launched, the affiliate marketing conferences and exhibitions. That was the first one that was in 2007. So move from marketing kind of into events. I was doing a lot of the content stuff there but equally supporting the events team. We’d grown to about I guess 12 people probably. So pulling off an affiliate marketing conference is no mean feat at the best of times. But yeah, doing that in London with a team of 12 was, you know, events. I do admire anybody that still works in events because it’s not the easiest thing in the world.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:03:52]:
It’s certainly a, it’s a hard slog. So I do my caf to them when I, when I do go to attend these events these days. So yeah, a few Expo rebranded to performance in and PI live around about 20. What about 20 2009, 2010. I think it’s hello partner. You might know it as today in PR Live Europe. So yeah, that was my, that was my first foray into. Into affiliate marketing.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:04:17]:
Kind of took me, took me through learnings and learning on the job I guess.

Marshall Nyman [00:04:22]:
And then you ended up at vouchercloud.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:04:24]:
Yeah. So weirdly in Bristol there’s not many affiliate marketing businesses. I mean it’s very London centric for, for the uk. And yeah, voucher cloud was one of the. I think there was probably about three at the time. There was also cool which was C O U Double O a video affiliate marketing platform that was also in Bristol, but I didn’t work for those however naturally kind of Looking for a new challenge, you know, PR live and still really good friends with Matt. It was time for a new challenge and yeah, Vouch Cloud were there. They were on the up on the rise and looking for some more, you know, industry experience I think to help them out and to, yeah, to get them into where they wanted to be.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:05:03]:
So yeah, I moved over there. That was really interesting. That was a team of a bit more established in terms of about 100, it’s probably 120, 130 people I think when I joined there and they, yeah, they very much in the, in the voucher coupon space. So everything that we still know it today. But you know, there was a great team that we built over that time of account managers, the London centric teams as well that we invested in. And yeah, it was, it was owned by Vodafone Ventures or part owned by Vodafone Ventures when I joined and it was an interesting experience and yeah, we did a lot there and we did a lot of I think good industry collaborations with clients. Some really good case studies, some quite innovative things that we won awards for as well. So this was the time when vouchcloud had the app and the mobile app and it was very much a really good way to sell into brands the opportunity to reach people via the mobile apps and geofencing campaigns that we did.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:05:59]:
There was one great one with Hotels.com, which we won an award for batch back in the day and that was all around geofencing train stations and sort of terminus of London on the night of the Christmas parties over the Christmas period and anybody that might have missed the last train, we were geofencing with the app to get last minute bookings for hotels and so on. So really clever, innovative things that you might not necessarily always assume with voucher sites you might do to this day because obviously it’s innovated itself. But yeah, we did some really good stuff there and it was a great bunch of people.

Marshall Nyman [00:06:30]:
And then you enjoy. And then you joined intently five years ago. What led you to do that?

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:06:35]:
Yeah, I did. I mean so Vouchpad actually was acquired by Groupon in 2018. So the. I’ve been there about three, three or four years and actually, you know what, that was a really interesting time as well because it was. Groupon had some very good rankings, organic rankings had, were fairly new into the coupon space from the affiliate side of it as well. So they were generating revenue for brands from the site and they needed that kind of operational side of it to Run and the voucher cloud, which was probably one of only a few, a handful of not already acquired or owned businesses that were available. And Groupon snapped us up. And that was really interesting because we went from being 130 people to being kind of enveloped into a 10,000 person business which was fascinating actually and trying to merge the two businesses together and understand one week we’re pitching against each other for business at big Brands and the next minute we’re sat in the same room, sat next to each other and pitching for the business together as one.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:07:40]:
So that was a really interesting time. I spent then time moving towards Chicago. So their group on head office, we merged the international and American Groupon business coupon business together, the affiliate side and therefore we were kind of operating the voucher stuff as a, as a global entity. So I spent about a week, a month in Chicago for about 18 months. Met some great people in Groupon as well. It was really interesting to be sort of thrown into that big business, big corporate business tape. And yeah, you know, I really, really enjoyed that. And they’re still good friends.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:08:16]:
I speak to this to this day. I see them at conferences, been over to Chicago a few times. So that’s what I’ve really enjoyed, especially the affiliate side of it as well. And I think everyone’s got that kind of social aspect and that friendly vibe and that marketing head on and it’s really nice to kind of still to still to see them and pop along and see them every now and again. So that was the Groupon piece and that’s when I think it got to a point where it was just looking for a new challenge. I’d known Ennis, who owns intently for some time, it was called Smart Click before then. So people may remember Smarterclik. And I’ve known him for many years as well.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:08:49]:
I think I used to sell him ad space when he was at Jessup’s back in the day as well. So yeah, we’ve gone and his negotiation skills are second to none as well. So that was always a hard bargain. But yeah, I had a good chat with Ennis and I think they were about 20 people at the time as well. So it was about getting back into that kind of growth phase of a business, excited for a new challenge. Take some of the operational elements that I’d learned over the time and help Enes apply that to his business and help us grow as a business and you know, offer that value especially and offer that affiliate aspect as well and really get, really get into there from A visibility perspective. And so yeah that was, that was five and a half years ago just pre Covid which was an interesting time to join a business two months before lockdown. So that was entertaining.

Marshall Nyman [00:09:37]:
Who is intently, what do they do so intently?

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:09:41]:
We’re a conversion rate optimization specialist. So we, we are performance based as well. So yes, we run overlays on site overlays. We have products such as in page email remarketing and we essentially add our tag to retailer websites. We look at the data, we look at the real time information, we liaise with the brands and understand their KPIs and targets and what they’re looking to achieve over this quarter. And then we create campaigns, put forward campaigns that we run on site based on the user journey. So it’s all about converting the shoppers that aren’t necessarily purchasing, turning them into buyers because again, you know, everyone talks about and it’s quite interesting when you talk about, you know, the affiliate summits and the events that we go to and everything where you know there’s a lot of traffic and there’s a lot of, you know, we can send you traffic and that’s great but actually how well is your traffic converting on site? And that’s actually where we’ve taken that kind of slight twist on the affiliate model and said well do you know what, we can help optimize your traffic. The traffic that’s not going to be converting with you turn that into something at the point of sale.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:10:40]:
So internally does that we’re been going for the business as a whole was been going for about 14 years. Yeah. We’re a global business, we operate every market we can. We’re centralized in the UK but as I’m sure many of your listeners, if they have met many of the team, I’m sure Luke will be well known as well. We’re always going to the events where we can across the globe getting ourselves out there and I think really advocating the industry as well. And that’s the bit that I always like to reinforce. We are affiliate advocates and everything we do is based in the, in the CPA model as well. So we are a pure play performance business but with a, with a conversion twist.

Marshall Nyman [00:11:21]:
What makes intently stand out from its competitors?

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:11:25]:
Well, I’d like to think a lot of things but generally you know, our managed service is really good. It’s second to none. I certainly feel that’s, that’s the case. We’ve hired well as well over the years so we’ve got a really good knowledgeable crew of client Success teams as well. So they’ve a few that I used to work with as well. So again we’re just, just bringing that knowledge together, bringing that can do attitude, that innovation, the, the drive to succeed and I think building and building that, that team has been really important. So what you get from us is everything in a managed service. You get the initial consultation, you obviously we support you in getting tags live on site, we support you with running, getting the data, getting the compliance questions out of the way.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:12:06]:
We will then look at the data, we’ll come back to you with campaign ideas and suggestions, we will try and match them towards your KPIs look to set some kind of things in motion for 1Q1H1 whatever that might be. So we really take that consultative element, we then pass it on to our CS team when the campaigns are live, we get the overlays and campaigns and emails designed in house as well. It’s very light touch on the brand side. So that whole managed service element for us is really important and that’s something that, especially when you’re working on a performance model, we’re working hard to generate sales and you’re paying us on that performance basis. So you know, we’re going to work as hard as we can to give you a good experience and that’s definitely one of the elements and the second one, you know, we’re such a good team I think the, and especially within industry. So we’re really proud of how we operate, what we’ve done, who we support within market and our visibility, our, our presence and the way we advocate the channel. So combine all those things and put the technology on top of that and I think we’re in good space.

Marshall Nyman [00:13:10]:
Any exciting product updates on the roadmap?

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:13:13]:
Yeah, absolutely. We’ve, we’ve actually just started rolling out our in page campaign so moving away from pure play overlays. Obviously we have email remarketing as well but actually looking at how we, we have a coupon analytics tool as well, I should mention that, but yeah, in page campaign. So being able to actually put the bulk of our campaigns into page so they actually are seamlessly integrated into the retailer’s journey as well. So we can do a lot more with that, we can reach more customers, we can be a little bit more tailored in approach. It’s enabled us to work more in the, you know, bit of the brand partnership space, a bit of the gift with purchase space, a bit more just enabling us to do more with our clients which you know, the clients dictate a Lot of how we innovate as well. And that’s something we encourage. So they’re all launching as we speak.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:14:01]:
Actually, some of the time this probably airs, we’ll be knee deep in that. So you’ll be able to speak to any of the team about those innovations. And we have the one I always mention, which is, which probably doesn’t get necessarily enough airtime, but it’s a very useful tool, is our coupon analytics tool. And that’s basically our. Every time a coupon is entered into the checkout box, we record all the information for that session that happened prior. So the referral source, the items, the pages they visited, the items in the basket, the average order value, the revenue, whether the code worked or didn’t work. And then what you can do is pump that, we pump that into a dashboard for you. And it’s a bit like a GA dashboard, but purely around the focus of coupons.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:14:44]:
So you can then look through and understand, okay, where is this? I’ve got very, I’ve got valid code which is generating good revenue, which partners haven’t I pushed this to yet. Can I expand that further? I’ve got a code here that doesn’t work, but it’s still being used. Where is that being promoted? And actually you can go through and find the individual referrers and publishers as well. So actually it’s a really useful tool for getting more out of your coupon ecosystem, as we call it. So we do a lot, there’s a lot that again we shout about, but there’s, yeah, exciting innovations and we’re doing a lot in the sort of AI ML space as well. So I guess watch this space on those ones.

Marshall Nyman [00:15:23]:
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Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:16:03]:
I certainly will, yeah. Luke and I are heading over. I think we’re doing a kind of slap dash tour of New York in August mainly because it’s nice and warm and humid normally at that time of year. But yeah, I’m actually, I’ve sent to Leap. We’ve actually got a, a day flight back from the States to the uk so we’re not doing a red eye.

Marshall Nyman [00:16:20]:
We’ve.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:16:20]:
Which I’m actually really excited about because a red eye for New York, it’s probably going from west to east coast for you. Right. It’s always painful. Whereas wake up early, get the flight over land and it’s pretty much bedtime. So I’m looking forward to seeing if I can beat jet lag for a change.

Marshall Nyman [00:16:37]:
Being on the west coast, I can never get away from those red eyes.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:16:40]:
No. Right.

Marshall Nyman [00:16:42]:
Why do you think a brand should get started in affiliate marketing?

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:16:46]:
I mean it’s, it’s hard isn’t it, when I think you’ve been in affiliate marketing for so long. But it is, it is really a no brainer, right? You, it’s paid on performance and I think that’s ultimately, I’m sure that’s what everyone goes to as well when you ask this question. But it’s, it is literally that, it’s that, it’s that access to, access to traffic, access to innovators, access to probably agile companies that can potentially do things that you can’t as well. And I think it’s that, that kind of, those few things coupled together which, which makes it a really enticing proposition for brands when they, when they look to enter the space. I mean I’m always surprised when I look at how many brands are actively in affiliate marketing and then I look at actually how many brands there are across the globe on a. I guess approximations. And there’s so much opportunity still and so many brands that should be getting more involved in affiliate that it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s a no brainer. It’s hard to say more than that really.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:17:39]:
It’s now it’s an evolved market as well. You know, know we’ve been in it for, for many years. It’s, it’s a, it’s a very solidified industry and it’s, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s well looked after. There’s a, there’s a lot more regulation than there was prior. There’s knowledge and therefore if, why wouldn’t you invest time and money into something where when you’re generating sales you’re then paying out?

Marshall Nyman [00:18:03]:
What advice do you have for people looking to grow their career within the industry?

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:18:07]:
Oh, I think, I think probably Two things I think the first one is network. Make sure you network. I don’t think that’s ever, it’s not under, never underrated. I think you should always be when you can networking. I think that connection of today can turn into your boss of tomorrow. It could be your new business partner in the future or it could be somebody that needs your experience and wants to bring you along for a journey and a ride. And I think without networking it’s going to be a lot harder. So I think you’ll naturally learn the stuff as well over time.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:18:40]:
And affiliate is in some eyes still very much more of a niche set of tools that you have in your marketing arsenal. But networking don’t undervalue networking every time you can. I think that’s definitely one gets harder as you get older though, I must say. But even then we still try and do it. And I think the second one is don’t forget how businesses operate and businesses work as well. So I think when you’re growing through the market and growing through learning about affiliate, always give thought to the wider business. You know, it’s not just about which partner you’re you know, giving tenancy to’s and which you know which new partners are driving you traffic and what your KPIs are. Think about the wider business and learnings to coincide with your affiliate marketing knowledge.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:19:26]:
I think that general knowledge around how businesses operate, you know, P Ls and finances, get your head involved in some more of that stuff as well because that’s ultimately I think if I look back at my experience and having not gone to someone like university, I guess I went to the university of life or university of affiliate marketing probably in this case. But you know that learning about how businesses operate, learning about yeah, deeper and being able to make more informed decisions, understand how you know, leadership management works, understanding performance reviews and how to manage people and how to actually be an effective leader and manager is something that I think might sometimes pass people by in the affiliate space. And I think it’s something that coupled together is a really strong proposition. So I think don’t forget that either.

Marshall Nyman [00:20:08]:
Any predictions on the future of performance marketing?

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:20:12]:
Well, I very much hope it still grows. Continues to grow I think and I don’t see why it wouldn’t. I think what I’m interested in is the kind of the, the joined up influencer train. The influencer train that’s hitting us constantly at the moment versus the this kind of affiliate industry that’s been around for some time and actually how these two are going to kind of exist together and actually can we get more as a, as an industry and can we add some really good knowledge and techniques of affiliate marketing into the influencer space? Which I know there’s been acquisitions and there’s been people looking to move through to, you know, CPA world and influencer marketing and I think we’re on the right tracks, but I think there’s just a whole world out there to, to work together in and actually make a really strong proposition for what is affiliate marketing and where it, where it, where it takes it. So I guess I’m kind of interested in that. I’m interested in AI and ML as well and where that possibly could take us. I think, as always though, you know, the affiliate space is innovative. It’s where you get a lot of entrepreneurial businesses go to as well.

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:21:17]:
So I’m excited to see what happens and I think it largely. Yes. So how we, how we bring together the influencer and affiliate world in a probably better fashion and a combined fashion and then how. Well, I’ve forgotten what I said now. The first one. Sorry, what’s the other point I was making? I got sidetracked.

Marshall Nyman [00:21:36]:
Happens to me all the time. What’s been your favorite part of working in the performance marketing industry?

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:21:45]:
It’s been, it’s been seeing the growth of the industry over 20 years. I think when I go look back at that forum and seeing how, how everyone was sharing and sharing really interesting insights, creating their own businesses, being successful people, trying, you know, many different businesses and success and failure and, but really advocating the channel and I think without that, you know, it wouldn’t be where it is today. I’m excited to see, to see how it, how it, how it goes. Yeah.

Marshall Nyman [00:22:16]:
A big thank you to Siege for joining the podcast this week. Some really great insights into his background and intently, what’s the best way for listeners to connect with you?

Chris ‘Ceej’ Johnson [00:22:25]:
I’m on LinkedIn. You’ll have to search for Chris Johnson or Chris Johnski I think is my, my LinkedIn profile because I’m half Polish as well. You mentioned that earlier.

Marshall Nyman [00:22:35]:
Again, thank you to our sponsor affiliate summities 2025, our guest siege and to our producer Leon Sonkin. If you’ve enjoyed this content, please give us a like and follow. Thank you for listening in. I’m Marshall Nyman, host of the Performance Marketing Spotlight and founder and CEO of Naimon Co. Signing off. Have a great one.