Episode #50 – The Performance Marketing Spotlight with Scott Ginsberg

Marshall Nyman [00:00:01]:
Hello and welcome to the Performance Marketing Spotlight. I’m your host, Marshall Nyman, founder and CEO of Naimon Co. Each episode I bring you someone with deep experience in the performance marketing space where they share their career journey and insights about the industry. Today I have Scott Ginsberg from Penske Media. Welcome to the podcast, Scott.

Scott Ginsberg [00:00:21]:
Hey Marshall, thanks for having me.

Marshall Nyman [00:00:23]:
Of course. Excited to have you on today. And let’s jump right into it. Can you briefly introduce yourself to the audience?

Scott Ginsberg [00:00:28]:
Sure. So, Scott Ginsberg, I’ve been in affiliate marketing going on a little over 20 years now. Most of you know me probably from CJ affiliate, then went to Brand Cycle which became Stack Commerce and most recently been at Bennett Penske Media for about three years now.

Marshall Nyman [00:00:44]:
And how did you get your start in marketing?

Scott Ginsberg [00:00:46]:
Sure. So I, when I graduated it was sort of early, early days of the Internet. So I went to a traditional ad agency and back then really tasked with billboard advertising, magazine advertising, even newspaper advertising, and started to sort of, you know, have clients asking about the Internet and specifically search when brands like Yahoo and even early days of Google started. So really seeing that shift, I ended up shifting from more of that traditional marketing into online during that time and.

Marshall Nyman [00:01:18]:
Eventually it all became full circle with where you’re at now. But you did move on from your role there to hot jobs. Tell us a little bit about that.

Scott Ginsberg [00:01:25]:
Yeah, so it was sort of a natural progression. As I said, I was more into the advertising, trying to sort of move towards online and at that time sort of hot jobs being part of Yahoo really was one of the larger, faster growing sites. So ended up sort of temporarily moving away from advertising and more towards hot jobs again within the Internet, you know, and sort of the, the ability to sort of connect. Job seekers are sort of the hot trend. So went there for about five years and you know, quickly sort of moved up within Yahoo, but still sort of missed the advertising and eventually ended up around 2005 over at CJ affiliate.

Marshall Nyman [00:02:00]:
And tell us a little bit about your time at cj.

Scott Ginsberg [00:02:03]:
Yeah, so I loved it. I was mostly on the publisher side of the, of the fence. And this is sort of the early CJ days when search was sort of king and sort of seeing the rise of loyalty and Coupon and Deal, etc. And so for me, my, my last eight or nine years was Vice president of publisher development and why that role was so special. It’s CJ’s always sort of valued that publisher ecosystem. So at one point I had a team of 25 individuals, whether it’s from biz dev to senior account manager. So really during the sort of prime years of affiliate, being able to sort of drive that strategy and sort of drive that sort of publisher, you know, abilities that. That were sort of my sort of passion and focus.

Scott Ginsberg [00:02:48]:
And I thought CJ was an awesome place to be able to do that.

Marshall Nyman [00:02:51]:
And then you pivoted to Brand Cycle. Tell us about them and your role there.

Scott Ginsberg [00:02:55]:
Yeah, so when I was at cj, I was sort of watching the shift, right? Brands kept saying, like, hey, we love affiliate, we love performance, but, you know, we want to diversify our program. We want to get away from just, you know, lower funnel. We want to sort of diversify. And for me, content was starting to come onto the scene. And back then it was buzzfeed and Business Insider and some of those sort of, you know, key brands. So, you know, Fast Forward Brand Cycle had two different sort of business models. One was an agency for influencers, but specifically for me, I was brought on to sort of build out their publisher services. So for me, you know, created a portfolio that had cnn, New York Post, Digital Trends, and then Penske Media.

Scott Ginsberg [00:03:42]:
So really went there and created an agency, really, for publishers and early days of content, we started to work with brands to solve for that upper funnel, getting content on some of those really big top websites.

Marshall Nyman [00:03:57]:
So you’re working with Penske and then seems like Penske pulled you away and you started with them three years ago. What was the catalyst for you to join them?

Scott Ginsberg [00:04:05]:
Yeah, so Penske on its own, right? They had acquired a couple different entities over the years. So taking a step back, I mean, Penske really got on the. On the map in affiliate. When they purchased Rolling Stone, they had Variety. They also had she Knows, but then from there they purchased, you know, Billboard and Hollywood Reporter. So now it’s become kind of a big entity in itself. So the opportunity to really kind of work full time at Penske, but represent, you know, these eight or nine top commerce websites, it kind of gave me the. The best of both worlds, right? It allowed me to sort of do what I love, which is sort of, you know, represented content websites.

Scott Ginsberg [00:04:41]:
But Penske kind of became big enough on its own, where we had a women’s influencer site or women’s fashion site. We’ve got, you know, music, we’ve got entertainment. So it almost became this big entity. So now spent about three years full time really just representing our portfolio, you know, and bringing it to different brands and advertisers.

Marshall Nyman [00:05:00]:
Tell us a bit more about Penske and what they do yeah, so again.

Scott Ginsberg [00:05:04]:
We have some brands like Women’s Wear Daily, 100 year old sort of nostalgic top brands. And so for me specifically it’s trying to help them to shift from traditionally where a lot of these top websites, when they shifted from print to online, did great. Whether it’s programmatic revenue, display revenue, sort of early days of Internet advertising, everything was sort of, you know, growing, audiences were growing. And for me again with my expertise being how to monetize content sites, it’s been how do we help them to shift away from, from sort of these non performance or sort of these traditional advertising methods into more performance. So for, for what we do, it’s really just trying to, you know, work with brands on a one to one level. I will say we do more of a hybrid, so it’s not pure CPA or, and it’s more with an investment, but it’s really trying to work with an amazing site like Rolling Stone and a great brand like Nike to create content and really being able to sort of bring new users into that content. And that’s sort of been our evolution and really what we’ve been focused on with these top content sites at Penske Media.

Marshall Nyman [00:06:19]:
What do you think makes Penske stand out?

Scott Ginsberg [00:06:21]:
I would say our quality editorial. You know, we’re very strict about, you know, keeping church and state. However, you know, we, we want to sort of be able to partner with these brands. So what I always say is when we get it right, we are able to lean in on a brand on what their goals are, really help them with that storytelling. So it’s almost like if a PR agency was working for a brand, like we sort of help them to what’s the best way to speak to or what’s the most optimal way to speak to that product. So I would say that’s been our secret sauce. And the other thing is, you know, for us we don’t want to just work with a brand on a one off. Like our goal would be to, you know, test with Rolling Stone, then add Billboard, variety, hard reporter, etc.

Scott Ginsberg [00:07:08]:
Into our campaigns. And to do that we know we have to perform. And so, you know, I’m proud of the fact that we have about an 80% renewal retention rate, meaning that once a client works with us, they want to come back, they want to continue to work with us. So we’ve even staff, we have a client success team now that, you know, we’ll offer full transparency on impression reporting and click reporting because again we know that upper funnel doesn’t work the same as Lower Funnel. So we really want to make sure that brands that are open to investing, they, they see that in totality, they’re able to see, you know, they’re able to get the storytelling, but also, you know, all those bells and whistles because we know for our buyers to justify, you know, working with us, they need all of that. So we really try to interact, know, give them and empower them with all the metrics that we can to really show how, you know, Upper Funnel content can really work with an affiliate to drive conversions as well as engagement, etc. For our different brands.

Marshall Nyman [00:08:07]:
Why do you think that Upper Funnel content is so important right now?

Scott Ginsberg [00:08:11]:
I think brands are, you know, more than ever. I think consumers want to know, like what, what are, what are brands all about? And I think if anything, years past actually. Let me. Sorry, Marshall, do you mind starting that question over again? I apologize.

Marshall Nyman [00:08:24]:
Yes. Why do you think Upper Funnel content is so important right now?

Scott Ginsberg [00:08:28]:
I think within the affiliate ecosystem, not to pick on Lower Funnel, but if you think about it, that the destination of someone looking for a coupon is they’re already in that mindset. Like, I want to buy a Nike sneaker, I’m going to look for a Nike coupon, I’m in that mindset. Or I want my loyalty reward for buying that Nike sneaker. I’m going to go to my favorite cash back site for Upper Funnel where we sort of win. It’s. We’re helping to create the beginning of that journey. We may not get the consumer that already wants to buy Nikes, but they might be shopping for best fall sneakers or best sneakers for a marathon. That’s where we sort of help.

Scott Ginsberg [00:09:05]:
It’s that consumer. Whether they’re searching, whether looking at social, they’re in that evaluation mindset. That’s where I think Upper Funnel can play a really good role of helping to influence that consumer journey and get that consumer to realize that’s what Nike has to offer as they’re evaluating what to buy.

Marshall Nyman [00:09:23]:
What’s been your favorite part of working at Penske?

Scott Ginsberg [00:09:27]:
I would say being able to sort of work across editorial. You know, Penske historically has put a lot of eggs in this sort of traditional basket. And I think affiliate is still, or performance in general is still pretty new. And five or six years ago we were a very, very small percentage of revenue. And as more brands start to start to lean in on a performance and as more, you know, internal PMC brands start to lean in, we’ve been growing like crazy. So I love that affiliates finally getting its fair share internally, we’re starting to show up on the map and you know, it’s becoming meaningful revenue. So I would say changing perceptions that it’s sort of this lower funnel, sort of like, hey, we have to do these deals to really getting a lot of editors that are now like how do we do more of this? So really changing mindsets and putting performance rather than being like a last click to on a pedestal and getting more, whether it’s, you know, homepage takeovers, whether it’s doing more social, it’s really trying to do more with these brands has been a huge success for us.

Marshall Nyman [00:10:33]:
I know you were just at cju. How is that event and any other conferences you plan on attending?

Scott Ginsberg [00:10:39]:
Yeah, I mean Santa Barbara is not too shabby of a location for anyone that hasn’t been so as always, they put on an amazing show. It’s been great. We tend to try to go to every network show, especially us based we’ll be at affiliate Summit. We had a really good experience at PI Live, so really try to kind of keep it to those. Been debating trying to get outside of our lane with like an E tail, et cetera. But we do find that the affiliate specific shows tend to be the most fruitful for us.

Marshall Nyman [00:11:08]:
We enjoy attending all of those as well. Well, let’s shift the conversation a little bit. Why do you think a brand should get started in performance marketing at this point?

Scott Ginsberg [00:11:19]:
I think it’s, it’s no longer a nice to have. I think it’s table stakes for their strategy. You know, if you look at some of the other, like I said, my career started doing more traditional advertising. And while I love to think like, hey, you know, know, a billboard on the highway is still effective, an ad in the magazine is still effective. If you look at how fast online has grown, for me, really what performance marketing is, it’s, it’s, it’s taking online advertising and making it more accountable. And again, like we’ve realized that it’s not for every brand always doing an upfront investment. And so of course being open to being creative, et cetera. And we’re always open to figuring out new.

Scott Ginsberg [00:12:00]:
But I would say for any brand that hasn’t, I think they’re missing out because it allows you to generate, you know, new incremental sales for new audiences. And you know, as new publisher models evolve, I’d say, you know, it continues to sort of bring and I think those that haven’t evolved have been sort of behind. So it’s continuing to bring sort of New marketing and new energy into your, into your marketing program.

Marshall Nyman [00:12:25]:
There’s been a lot of changes with search recently. What are you doing to adapt to all those changes?

Scott Ginsberg [00:12:31]:
Sure. So for us specifically, we’ve definitely in the past valued a lot with SEO. Like SEO, definitely we used to rank very high for top Christmas gifts, top gift guides, etc. And clearly over the last several years, I think Google’s algorithm shifts continue to keep us on our toes, evolving how we think about content, how we write content, and really trying to sort of meet the algorithm where it is. So we’ve seen that hopefully we continue to benefit from Google, but we don’t want to wait. Right. Knowing how fast Google has been changing. So for us it’s doubling down more on social.

Scott Ginsberg [00:13:11]:
We’ve seen social media be a pretty good driver for us, whether it’s meta, Instagram, even YouTube. We’ve also seen dedicated email be attractive for us. We’ve got, given the size of the Penske network, we have a pretty good first party database of ads. So using even those targeting methods to get consumers in. So while we think there’s always going to be a place for search and while we always hope, whether it’s AI or SEO, that we can sort of still do fine, we’re diversifying our audiences and making sure that for any of our campaigns and brands, you know, we are again leveraging any other channel just to make sure that we can still grow no matter what happens really when it relates to specifically search. Headwinds.

Marshall Nyman [00:14:00]:
Outside of search, what are other challenges that you’re facing as a publisher right now?

Scott Ginsberg [00:14:04]:
I would say it’s, it’s also. Give me one second. You mind? Sorry, Marshall, last time. Would you mind just asking that one more time? I apologize.

Marshall Nyman [00:14:12]:
Outside of search, what are other challenges that you’re facing as a publisher right now?

Scott Ginsberg [00:14:16]:
It’s really trying to figure out again, continuing to get traffic in any other way. You know, with social gaining a lot of eyeballs and consumers being less open to going onto these different top websites, it’s, you know, consistently trying to find a way to drive consumers into our content again once we get them in. I feel our teams do a great job of, you know, educating them, ensuring that they see our content to then go over to the brand. But it’s constantly just trying to make sure that, you know, we’re bringing the consumers into the fray knowing that, you know, beyond search, there’s a lot of different ways to sort of use those.

Marshall Nyman [00:14:54]:
What excites you most about performance marketing right now?

Scott Ginsberg [00:14:57]:
The growth we’ve seen, you know, especially within content, we’ve definitely seen more and more brands, like I said earlier, come back to us and start investing more. They’re starting to really lean in and work with a brand like a Rolling Stone or Variety. So for brands like Entertainment, we are a great home for those. So it’s really just a continuation of that alignment of that true partnership where again, we can sort of help those brands to storytell, help to engage consumers and ultimately continue to grow and increase affiliate revenue overall.

Marshall Nyman [00:15:33]:
Do you see the performance model moving to more of a paid media model?

Scott Ginsberg [00:15:38]:
You know, for specifically what I do, we’re always upfront with any brands. Our model is more of a hybrid. Right. We always want to back into whatever metric the brand cares about, whether that’s a ROAS requirement, whether that’s a click requirement, whether that’s a specific KPI that they have. But for us, it does become very hard to optimize on a pure CPA basis because again, if you think about the mind of a content site is we’re only going to get paid if we convert. And so it’s a constant chicken and egg if a brand’s like, what if we paid you X and got Y? And so. So for us, we really do try to, you know, meet the brand where they want to be, which is that sort of hybrid, which is again, there’s an investment to get, whether that’s a dedicated article, the dedicated inclusion. But we do want to make sure that the brand sees the success that they’re looking for.

Scott Ginsberg [00:16:28]:
So it’s making sure that despite that, we do, you know, do everything we possibly can to meet those KPIs. Because again, our success is predicated on and having these brands come back and be happy. And the only way to do that is to make sure that whatever metrics we show them, they’re going to feel comfortable that it’s working. And to do that, we know we need to have conversions and ensure that content is working to meet their goals.

Marshall Nyman [00:16:52]:
Yep. Top of Funnel is always more of a brand awareness play. What makes you bullish on partner marketing over the next few years, I see.

Scott Ginsberg [00:16:59]:
A lot of other channels starting to come to affiliate and that and that to me is something that I’ve wanted to see for a long time. We’ve seen a lot of PR agencies that traditionally rely on that concept of earned media start to say, wait a minute, if I can do it through affiliate performance, why not? We’ve seen traditional ad agencies say our clients are now asking about performance. Can you help us internally. Again, I said years ago, I think within Penske, affiliate was very tiny. Now brands are starting to ask, how do I do more? So as I see the momentum increase, it’ll get more eyeballs. And, you know, my goal would be to continue to elevate performance within Penske and, you know, start to do even more things with brands. Again, like I said earlier, whether it is more dedicated, email, more display, et cetera, and really connecting those brands with our various audiences, I think you’re spot on with that.

Marshall Nyman [00:17:51]:
I’m seeing convergence of all the different marketing channels into affiliate, social influencer, pr, SEO, Geo. It’s all kind of coming together very interestingly right now. What’s been your favorite part of working in the performance marketing industry?

Scott Ginsberg [00:18:09]:
You know, it’s going to sound cliche, but it truly is. The relationships. You know, having been at CJ for 13 years and having a fairly large team, whenever I go to a conference, I say that you got to be nice to everyone because it could be your old employee, could now be your boss, your coworker, or your manager. And I do love the people, the people that I’ve gotten to know. I think, you know, just kind of seeing that industry evolve, that’s the part that I love and continue to. To enjoy being part of it.

Marshall Nyman [00:18:37]:
Well, a big thank you to Scott Ginsberg for joining the podcast this week. Some great insights in his background and how you can work with Penske. What’s the best way for listeners to connect with you?

Scott Ginsberg [00:18:46]:
Sure. So I’m happy to share. My email is S. Ginsburg G I N S b e r gmc.com or happy to connect on LinkedIn.

Marshall Nyman [00:18:54]:
Amazing. Again, thank you to Scott for joining and thank you to our producer, Leon Sonkin. If you’ve enjoyed this content, please give us a like and a follow. Thank you for listening in. I’m Marshall Nyman, host of the Performance Marketing Spotlight and founder and CEO of Nymon Company, signing off. Have a great day.