Episode #60 – The Performance Marketing Spotlight with Amanda Karr

Marshall Nyman [00:00:01]:
Hello and welcome to the Performance Marketing Spotlight. I’m your host, Marshall Diamond, founder and CEO of Nymo Co. Each episode, I will be bringing you someone with deep experience in the performance marketing space where they share their career journey and insights about the industry. Today I have Amanda Carr of Tailored Brands. Welcome to the podcast, Amanda.

Amanda Karr [00:00:22]:
Thank you for having me, Marshall.

Marshall Nyman [00:00:24]:
Excited to have you on. Let’s get right to it. Would love for you to briefly introduce yourself to the audience?

Amanda Karr [00:00:29]:
Yeah, like you said, my name is Amanda Carr. I am based in the Bay Area, East Bay girl at heart, and I have been in the industry for a couple of decades now, with the last 15 years being on retail side.

Marshall Nyman [00:00:41]:
And how did you get your start in marketing?

Amanda Karr [00:00:44]:
Through a newspaper ad. But actually, I was doing marketing straight out of college, and I had moved to Santa Cruz and was looking for a job and started— I answered an ad for, an affiliate marketing agency, where they trained for the first 2 weeks that you started there, which is really deep dive into everything that is affiliate.

Marshall Nyman [00:01:06]:
And that led you to ultimately joining Macy’s? Yeah.

Amanda Karr [00:01:10]:
Um, obviously it’s all about who you know, right? Like, especially in this industry. Um, and so just from a couple, you know, jobs that I’d had, I, I had an, um, a person that I knew who reached out, said they needed, um, some help over at Macy’s. Um, and so I went there. And was on that affiliate marketing team for 9 years.

Marshall Nyman [00:01:28]:
What was it like switching from the agency to the brand side?

Amanda Karr [00:01:34]:
Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting. You know, agency, it was definitely something good in my 20s. Obviously the amount of hours you put in learning all the different brands, you work obviously with many different types and then going to the retail side, it just becomes a different challenge of trying to educate internally. The, you know, most people don’t know what affiliate is. I don’t think my mom even knew for the first like 10 years of me doing this. So I’m trying to explain to an executive suite like what, what you’re actually doing and what you’re contributing to the business. But then also being on the retail side, obviously since I’ve been doing it, it’s almost like second nature now of just implying what we do., and being able to speak internally. Also got to learn all the acronyms.

Amanda Karr [00:02:23]:
Retail has a lot of acronyms, which you don’t realize you’re in it.

Marshall Nyman [00:02:28]:
And so now you’ve been at Tailored for a bit. Um, tell us a little bit about Tailored.

Amanda Karr [00:02:32]:
Who are they? Yeah, Tailored Brands. So, uh, Men’s Warehouse, Jose Bank are the two that we have, uh, programs for that have websites. We also have Moores up in Canada as well as K&G, um, but they don’t have an affiliate program. Um, but that is what all the different brands that are underneath Tailored Brands. Obviously Men’s Warehouse is one of the most known, Joseph A. Bank as well, but just the go-to destination for any kind of special event, wedding, prom is huge. But then also our everyday wear that we’ve been really promoting in the last couple years has been a huge focus. So casual pants and sweaters and t-shirts and golf attire.

Marshall Nyman [00:03:13]:
So it’s fun. I think I’ve been in the target demographic my whole life.

Amanda Karr [00:03:18]:
Well, we love that. Just keep on coming back, right? Uh, we get you in with that, that prom in high school and then just try to keep you.

Marshall Nyman [00:03:26]:
So it’s, it’s been fun.

Amanda Karr [00:03:29]:
Men’s Warehouse.

Marshall Nyman [00:03:30]:
I’m sorry, I was gonna say I moved from Men’s Warehouse, uh, when I was younger to now Joseph A. Bank. I just got a great jacket there in Naimo Green, so, uh, Yeah, I love their stuff.

Amanda Karr [00:03:40]:
Oh, that’s awesome. Yeah, all the fun spring colors right now too, right? Like you surprise like people for spring and Easter and spring weddings, like all the fun different colors. I love green. That’s my favorite.

Marshall Nyman [00:03:53]:
I think I agree with you.

Amanda Karr [00:03:56]:
Yeah. The only downside is I don’t really get to use the, the benefit, uh, the discount, the employee discount as much as like I did say Macy’s, like just because I don’t have a whole lot of men in my life that, you know, I can buy for, but You know, I don’t get to really use it.

Marshall Nyman [00:04:12]:
I guess that’s the only drawback. So what was the affiliate program like when you took over?

Amanda Karr [00:04:19]:
It wasn’t very diversified. It was very heavy in one area, I shall say. Most people probably know if they’ve ever been on anything like Slickdeals before, I guess 2020. But I definitely— it was very one-heavy weighted. Also, again, internally, there was a misconception of what affiliate is, thinking it’s just these people that are looking for deep discounts or that it’s not truly incremental channel. And so really when I got here, it was educating, explaining how much more is affiliate out there that you just don’t realize. I think that is one of the biggest things is that people see things every day and they don’t really actually realize like, oh, that is part of the performance marketing channel. So definitely getting more content and more influencers and more of that upper funnel that people just don’t think of affiliate.

Marshall Nyman [00:05:18]:
That kind of led me into my next question is what type of strategy are you taking now with the program?

Amanda Karr [00:05:25]:
Yeah, so it is definitely just keeping it balanced. Like I’m not saying, you know, definitely keep with the other areas, right? Like you want to be where the consumer is. So those consumers are shopping on, say, some deal sites, or maybe they want to get their cash back or their airline miles or whatnot. And that’s where they’re shopping. And I think as a brand, it’s very important to be there, to be in the consideration. If someone is looking for, say, a men’s suit, you don’t want them going to a competitor just because you’re not there on wherever they’re— I feel like people are, consumers are more loyal to the maybe an affiliate versus like the brand itself sometimes. And so you definitely want to kind of still be there. But then as well as diversifying your program and making sure you have still stuff in that upper funnel through, say, creators or different content partners and just keeping that active and fresh.

Marshall Nyman [00:06:24]:
Well, when I recently bought the jacket, that was what kind of was going through my mind is, am I going to get some sort of value for buying? And I was able to get some. I think I did points. I believe I went through Carterra. I definitely got, got some sort of loyalty exchange for purchasing. So I think it definitely is important for the consumer.

Amanda Karr [00:06:44]:
Yeah, I agree. I mean, and we all know, right? I mean, you should see when I try to do my taxes, like the amount of what I’m looking at of what, how much am I going to get back and what’s going to be the most beneficial and who that decides where I go to purchase, right?

Marshall Nyman [00:06:59]:
Or finish.

Amanda Karr [00:07:01]:
Absolutely. I mean, we’re in it, we know, but the consumers do it as well. There’s a lot of— I always like to say we have the definitely the savvy shoppers out there in our channel.

Marshall Nyman [00:07:09]:
Oh yeah. But I think also over the last decade, shoppers have just become much more savvy. So like maybe 10, 15 years ago, people weren’t really people weren’t too worried if they were going to get a discount or if there was a loyalty component. And now when people shop, they absolutely are going to look for the best deal and make sure they’re getting something in return for it.

Amanda Karr [00:07:31]:
Yeah, definitely. Especially if you don’t have free shipping. That’s what I always do. I always outweigh that, right? If I’m going to pay $10 for shipping, I want to get something back in that.

Marshall Nyman [00:07:42]:
Yeah, nobody likes a shipping charge. How has the brand been impacted by all the changes in the industry the past few years?

Amanda Karr [00:07:53]:
Yeah, so I think internally, I mean, it’s obviously the— everybody talks about it, but the media mix modeling, which definitely undervalues affiliate channel. Most of them do. Most of them either look at clicks or impressions, which, you know, we know people aren’t With that less of that upper funnel, like we’re not getting as much credit in the purchasing path, I guess I should say. So that’s made it hard internally of just advocating for the channel and trying to explain that, no, we, you know, we do bring value and we do bring incremental and we do bring new customers. So I think that has been a big shift in the last couple of years. But it is very exciting going into just this year. I say since like probably the end of last summer with the whole talks of AI and LLMs and the citations, things that we’ve already been doing in the channel, right? For, like I just said, as soon as I came on, I was like, we need more content. And that was 4 years ago.

Amanda Karr [00:08:55]:
So we already have that content that’s out there that’s been, you know, building for the last few years. And now it’s getting recognized, at least at the higher levels, because everybody wants to be It’s just like when they used to do Google searches, right? And you want to be on the top when you’re searching for, say, men’s suits. Now you want to be on ChatGPT or Claude or whatever.

Marshall Nyman [00:09:16]:
So how does Tailored Brands look at influencer marketing?

Amanda Karr [00:09:20]:
We love influencer marketing. So yeah, the creators, that is a huge portion of what we do, especially our demographic. You know, we skew younger. Like it is those people that are getting married, Gen Zs, right? So, and you know, you hear so much more of just that’s how they’re shopping. The Gen Zs are, they go to the creators first. Like I was just saying about the loyalty sites, right? Those people are very loyal to them. People are loyal to the creators and trying to make sure that we’re on top of mind when, you know, when you got a special event coming and you want to make sure that we’re being considered. So there’s a lot that’s put into our our influencers.

Marshall Nyman [00:10:04]:
What’s been your favorite part of working there?

Amanda Karr [00:10:06]:
The people, definitely. We have a— our digital marketing team also feels like almost kind of like startup because we are smaller and it’s easier to work with each other. For example, even just like what I was mentioning with the AI really becoming a big topic like last summer, you know, now it’s like, you know, affiliate, we need to, you know, you got to work with social. Not like I wasn’t already with influencers, obviously hand in hand, don’t want to be competing. You want to be complimenting, but also making sure everybody’s on the same path, right? So you’re talking with like the SEO team or the display team or the SEM team. Everybody’s just really close. And so it helps with just like your everyday and also makes it a joy to come into work, right? So, which is the most important since we spend so much time at work.

Marshall Nyman [00:10:54]:
Absolutely. Definitely gotta enjoy where you work. I can attest to that. Are you planning, are you planning on attending any conferences this year?

Amanda Karr [00:11:04]:
I actually am. I’m going to Optimism in Phoenix, and then I’m also going to be going to AWIN just for my own personal— I also was born in Illinois, so Chicago is like my second home. And so I definitely jumped on that. So I’ll be at day one as well. Looking forward to this. I’ve never been to a Think Tank, so I’m excited.

Marshall Nyman [00:11:26]:
Well, sounds like we got a few things in common. I was born in Chicago also, so I, I do like going, uh, to Think Tank. I will be there as well. And, uh, we are also going to, uh, be at the Optimism event in Arizona, and I’m looking forward to that because, uh, it’s been about 7 or 8 years now since the last one was in Arizona, it feels like. Yeah, I remember the Scottsdale Yes. And that was my first Rakuten event and I had a great time there and it was like an eye-opening experience for me about affiliate marketing.

Amanda Karr [00:12:00]:
Oh, I bet it is a good one. But you should definitely— I already booked. I got a ticket to the Cubs game on the Sunday before, so I will be at the Cubs-Mets game. You should come over.

Marshall Nyman [00:12:14]:
All right. Try to get out there early. Yeah. What excites you most about the performance marketing space right now?

Amanda Karr [00:12:22]:
Just, I think the AI portion is really exciting. It just gives us even more opportunity to be at least, you know, on the brand side, having visibility, like I said, with the C-suite so that they know really more of like when they can see what we actually do, I feel like it just, it really helps. So I think that is the most exciting is just where this is going to go. It’s also kind of scary, right? Like moving away from last click. It’s a constant conversation. And I think, you know, putting more into that content so that you are getting cited, but like nobody really has an answer yet of how are we going to measure that? Or the affiliate partners, like how are they going to get credit for those citations? So It’ll be interesting to see. I think it’s— everything’s moving super fast, and I’m excited to just see where this goes. I think it’s really going to help just give more credibility to our channel.

Marshall Nyman [00:13:22]:
So you mentioned AI. Are you starting to use AI in how you’re running the programs or anything at all with AI?

Amanda Karr [00:13:30]:
Yeah, I mean, we’re all internally been using AI in different— every different department is in different ways, on the website, through digital marketing, et cetera. For me personally, I, like I said, I’ve been really focused on content creation. We did actually do a big test kind of in Q4 of really focusing on— we’re not huge. Q4 is not— I mean, you do come to us for gifts, but like I said, more it’s spring, right? And prom and weddings and special events. Not so much like, oh, dad, I get for dad, but we do have those options. So I spent during Q4 really focused on like holiday gift guides and listicles and did a focus there and was excited to actually see us get some citations just from like looking in ChatGPT or whatnot. So just knowing that it is actually somewhat working and then how am I going to expand that and who do you work with, how do you optimize it, which is what I’m always looking at in the data. Like there’s just not— it’s not really there yet.

Amanda Karr [00:14:34]:
So it’s It’s going to be constantly learning right now, but I’m excited.

Marshall Nyman [00:14:39]:
Why do you think a brand should get started in affiliate marketing?

Amanda Karr [00:14:44]:
Low risk. I think that’s always the most important, low risk with a good profitability. Obviously you can set what you want that return to be. If you’re looking at things like the media mix modeling, like obviously the return’s not going to look as good for affiliate, especially again, because It is undervalued there, but we still do drive traffic and sales and we are able to set what that return is. So there is that low risk cost of, you know, we’re only paying once that sale happens, right? So if you are a company that doesn’t have a program, this is an easy way in. I also just over the years, I mean, I’ve obviously seen this space adapt and change over a couple of decades, but it’s always one of the first places that like new businesses or new business ideas I feel like always kind of put their toe in first. A lot of different companies that I did a test when they were brand new and now they’re, you know, huge. So they may not stay in affiliate, but they definitely always kind of usually start there.

Amanda Karr [00:15:47]:
So for like new business ideas or finding incrementality, I think having an affiliate program is, is really key. Especially because you want to meet the customers like where they are, right? So if customers are going to do this new company and now they’re an affiliate and that’s the way you can get in the door and work with them, I think that’s best.

Marshall Nyman [00:16:07]:
What are some challenges that you think the industry needs to tackle?

Amanda Karr [00:16:13]:
Last click. This is going to be— I mean, as we move more and more away from that, what are— how are people going to adapt and change? I think this is gonna be harder for definitely the bigger, traditionally bigger partners in the industry, but it will be interesting to see. Toolbars are obviously the hot topic right now too. It’s hard ’cause you wanna be there where the consumer is, but then also at the same time, like there’s so much of the shadiness that can happen from it. As we’re trying, I think one of the biggest challenges that’s constantly in our channel again is putting credibility to us. I mean, I remember the very early days of the pop-unders and the toolbars that got downloaded in a software and all the shady things that like gave us the bad name in the very beginning. And we’ve been constantly trying to dig ourselves out of that, even though we’re, you know, we are a very valuable channel to any big brand. Any brand really.

Amanda Karr [00:17:18]:
So how do you get that stigma out of people’s minds? I feel like it’s, it’s a hard thing to do. So it doesn’t help when things are— there are still people that are trying to make a quick buck that we have to constantly battle.

Marshall Nyman [00:17:34]:
Any predictions on the future of performance marketing?

Amanda Karr [00:17:39]:
I feel like we’re just going to get more and more entwined internally with other— I think as people start to kind of figure out more of like what we do and as the more eyes get on us with, say, AI or creators or content just in general, I feel like you’re going to have to be working more with the teams internally. And then that’s like not only exciting, but also like it’s going to be a learning experience for everybody. You know, I always say it’s interesting that a lot of people in those higher positions in companies, a lot of them still don’t have that performance marketing background. I would love to see in the future if like there are some people that really start to take those bigger, higher roles that who actually understand and come from this space. I think that would really help us in general because a lot of it’s just they don’t know.

Marshall Nyman [00:18:36]:
You know, and what’s been your favorite part of working in the performance marketing industry?

Amanda Karr [00:18:42]:
The people, the relationships. That’s, I think the reason, just kind of piggyback on what I just said. I think the reason nobody’s at the higher levels is because we all just really love what we do. I think most people, like, instead of just moving up even higher, they’ve just gone on and done their own companies, which is awesome and amazing. I love seeing so many of my friends and friends in the industry starting their own business or working for themselves. So it just, you know, nobody leaves it. I’m still working with people, you know, their kids are in college now and I remember meeting them when they were little. You know, it’s— we just don’t leave.

Amanda Karr [00:19:17]:
And I think I— and we’re all just like very smart marketers and I love just having the like camaraderie that we all have and the think tank and the sharing, you know, it’s, it’s great.

Marshall Nyman [00:19:30]:
Well, that’s a great place to wrap. A big thank you to Amanda for joining the podcast this week. Some great insights into her background and her role at Tailored Brands. What’s the best way for listeners to connect with you?

Amanda Karr [00:19:44]:
LinkedIn. Find me on LinkedIn, Amanda Carr, K-A-R-R. Or find me at one of the conferences. I’m always willing to talk, so come on up.

Marshall Nyman [00:19:56]:
Definitely come to some of the conferences. They’re always a good time. Again, thank you to Amanda for joining and to our producer, Leon Sonkin. If you’ve enjoyed this content, please give us a like and follow. Thank you for listening in. I’m Marshall Nyman, host of the Performance Marketing Spotlight and founder and CEO of Nymo Co, signing off. Thanks so much. Have a great day.